You call this "discipline," the rest of us call it torture...

[lunadelcorvo]

Christian discipline drawing criticism even from Christians

The two cases discussed are here and here. There is another excellent Salon article on the phenomenon here.

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When the hell are we going to deal with this crap? When are we going to realize that parents usually don't dream up this stuff on their own? In no way do I exonerate a parent who can beat their child to death without knowing it's wrong, but the Pearls and others with similar rhetoric are to blame as well. "Doesn't advocate abuse?" Seriously? In whose dictionary is advising a parent to use plumbing line to strike their child (as young as 6-12 months!) NOT abuse?

What really bothers me is that this stuff is not broadly pursued with any real vigor because it hides behind a bogus screen of religious freedom. Individuals who go to far are sometimes (but not always) convicted of what it really is: abuse, murder, torture. But the broad problem gets a minor mention at the bottom of the article, with words like 'suspect,' 'may be influenced.' Why? Why is this not a center stage issue?

I'll tell you why. First, imagine a Muslim family that did this in the US; beat a child to death in the name of religious discipline. What a shitstorm that would be! Or a Wicca parent, using a switch to instill their religious values (supposedly just as well protected)? We look the other way on this stuff because as a society, we are scared to confront the Christian gloss on it, and it perpetrators hide behind that gloss, knowing it protects them. I call bullshit!!!!!!

Comments

[lucretiasheart.livejournal.com]

Yikes.

That sort of shit makes me sick. Rationalization of authority to the point of trying to "train" children to treat parents like "sovereigns"-- even leaving out the whole concept of physical abuse, the mental abuse of such a thing is gigantic.

And it doesn't work! Children brought up in such families are MORE likely to become criminals, promiscuous, drug abusers-- etc.-- not less! AND it all happens when they get too big to beat without retaliation (in other words, at some point children, especially males, tend to hit back or just leave the home.) I was in Ohio around families where this attitude is common, and families where FATHERs were in total charge were often very sick with incest and all sorts of things. And the sons did go to drugs and crime, and the girls left home early and slept around and....

Besides, AUTHORITY CAN BE WRONG! If you aren't allowed the ability to question authority, how can you possibly stop evil from happening like a good Xtian should? Wasn't Jesus anti-authoritarian himself?

This is why I can't respect Christianity (or ANY of the desert religions) as a whole at all. They START from a bad place, and attempts at reform (as I consider Jesus' teachings to be) fail again and again in the face of a system that is bad to begin with. Chuck it all and try something else, I say. Something that is not about a Male Authoritative God and his blindly obedient followers.

Ug.

[primitivepeople.livejournal.com]

I agree with a lot of what you say here. I've seen a lot of people who had very strict parents end up going off the rails - it very rarely has the desired effect.

However, there are plenty of sensible Christians out there (and I hope I'm one of them) who recognise this stuff for the absolute bollocks that it is. I take raising my children very seriously and I encourage them to think.

Thinking is so important. As soon as people run away from thinking for themselves, and let someone else do it - that way madness lies.

[lucretiasheart.livejournal.com]

Exactly. Of course.

I know there are good Christians out there, who are sane, sensible, and compassionate-- true followers of Christ. I'm sorry if my words seem so condemnatory.

I just see too much automatic rationalization and tolerance towards violence and injustice on the basis of serving male authority in the desert religions based upon scarcity: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Good people can and do follow these religions, obviously! However, the basis of the religions make it a very short step for people to justify abuse and subjugation...

sub·ju·gate 
–verb (used with object),-gat·ed, -gat·ing.
1.to bring under complete control or subjection; conquer; master.
2.to make submissive or subservient; enslave.

... based upon a male over female, human over nature, God over everything fundamental viewpoint which is generally intrinsic to these desert religions, given the cultural context in which they arose. Add the sneaky mind-control adage of "blind faith" as a requirement and all is doomed.

And I disagree with all of this so I can't respect it. I would never stand in anyone's way of believing anything or practicing anything so long as no one
is harmed-- but there's the rub, there's so many levels of harm, as soon as you apply the structures right from the get go. Hense my lack of respect.

I'm glad that good and sane people, regardless of their religion can see insanity and cruelty for what it is and stand up against it. VERY glad. However, I can't help but notice the connections and the source of where it comes from-- it's not a bizarre coincidence that desert religions have all these awful types of leaders and followers. It's not.

[primitivepeople.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry if my words seem so condemnatory.

Don't worry, I wasn't offended. I'm often shocked and saddened by how utterly stupid some Christians are, and it's often enough to make me tempted to give up. God I can cope with, but a lot of his followers are nutjobs.

Thankfully, here in the UK, more extreme Christian fundamentalism is rare, and a lot of churches are fairly moderate.

I fully understand your issues, as I've had to work out a hell of lot of this stuff myself - and a certain Raven Moon has seen a lot of my agonised travails over this.

I think a lot of this hinges on how far you go in taking the Bible literally. Most hardcore evangelicals/conservatives/fundies adopt an "all or nothing" approach to the Bible - or at least claim that they do - despite the fact that it was written thousands of years ago in a violent and largely anarchic culture. The view that it's either all true, or all false, is very widespread, and I held this for a long time, until I realised that this is crazy, and the Bible is full of stuff that, true or not, just isn't relevant to 21st century life. For starters, modern concepts of love, romance, marriage and relationships simply didn't exist when it was written, and trying to apply bits of the Bible literally to this is extremely problematic.

I have a lot of serious problems with most of the Old Testament and some lesser problems with the New, and I'm not sure I'll ever deal with these. But thankfully I recently moved house, giving me an excuse to dump the fundie-nutjob church I was in and move to a much more sensible and rather more liberal one. It did me a lot of good.

[lucretiasheart.livejournal.com]

Wow. Why aren't you a spokesperson for all Christians?? We need to hear more from people like yourself. You give me serious hope.

And, yes, the UK doesn't have the crazy fundies we suffer from over here. Sigh! America started as a place to escape religious persecution only to become one of the least liberal places religiously. Double sigh... =^\

[primitivepeople.livejournal.com]

Well, I've occasionally thought about becoming a minister of some sort, but I don't think I'd be taken all that seriously, unfortunately - because I'm not "evangelical" enough. A lot of Christians are threatened by people like me, who stick with it but ask lots of awkward questions.