*snicker*

[lunadelcorvo]

(Quoted from Austin Cline's Agnosticism / Atheism Blog, Austin Cline, http://atheism.about.com/b/a/259483.htm.)

Should more atheists become more comfortable with the fact that so many people in America are "god-fearing"? If it's true that these people cannot come up with any reason for being moral without their god and religion, perhaps we are better off that they remain theists — at least for the time being. We don't want them to become atheists unless and until they are able to develop a stronger sense of morality. We don't want people to become atheists unless and until they are able to divorce morality and moral behavior from their prior religious beliefs. I shudder to think what sorts of crimes some of them might commit if they just woke up one day and stop believing in gods

So, the next time someone tells you that there's no reason to be moral for atheists, maybe a good response would be: "That's why I don't want you to stop being a religious theist. If the only thing keeping you from raping and murdering is your belief in your god, then I'd prefer if you just held on to that for a while longer. I don't want you to become a secular atheist unless and until you develop enough morally and intellectually that you can behave in a positive, moral way simply out of concern for the well-being of others. I want you to refrain from hurting others because you actually care about what happens to them, not because you're under orders from some deity."

(More meaningful, personal content coming soon, especially for some of you; you know who you are... )

Comments

[ain-soph-dei.livejournal.com]

I more or less agree, although I'll take it a step further.

Let's take the example of Christianity in America. Arguing with Christians tends to leave you with the impression that Christians think they have a monopoly on morality in this country. Even ignoring the fact that they seemingly would have no reason to act in a moral manner without their religion, the key themes that, for them, are the driving motivators to be *particularly* moral is the idea of Heaven and Hell. So, basically, they buy into their religious beliefs because of the selfish and greedy hope of Heaven - the bribe that cannot be denied - and their fear of eternal torment. So even though for them part of being moral is being selfless, for the bottom line they're acting purely out of self-interest, not out of love for their deity or whatnot. So even while using religion as a crutch to *force* themselves to be moral, they're not even particularly moral then, by their own standards, nor can they be so long as they accept the doctrine of heaven and hell. Talk about a deficit in moral capital. :/

[raven-moon.livejournal.com]

Totally! If there is anything worse than pure, unadulterated self-serving greed, it is the same dressed up as righteous altruism... Phooey!

[donerleg.livejournal.com]

Hey its me Donna. I am not a good arguer (I know thats not a word) but I am a Christian and not out of fear but totally out of love. Im sure your intellect is far greater than mine dear one but had to hop in to the fray.

[raven-moon.livejournal.com]

My dear, were you the rule rather than the exception, the world would be a far better place, and religion would be wholly irrelevant as a moral force, and would be entirely a celebration of living. *That* would be (and always has been, on the rare occasion I have encountered it) a type of religion with which I have no quarrel at all. The fact that I can count on one hand the people I have encountered of which that can be said, however, is where my difficulty lies.

As I see it, you would be essentially the same wise and loving soul no matter the particular creed you happened to espouse. The Pat Robertsons of the world would likewise be the same foul, power-mongering, hate-spewing toads regardless of the creed they claimed as justification.

Christianity, indeed any faith, sticks in my craw only when and to the extent that its followers and use literalism and dogma as an excuse to, at best, meddle in the lives of others, and at worst, deem it a righteous act to kill them. Based on what I know of you, I consider you to be of another species entirely....

[donerleg.livejournal.com]

Love you

[lachaim.livejournal.com]

Ooohhh...I like that. Will have to file that away for future reference.

[pollcat.livejournal.com]

I know I haven't said so before but I just love your posts about religion. They remind me of why being an atheist makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Hee.

[raven-moon.livejournal.com]

LOL! Yay! I'm glad you enjoy! I know I have a few friends that get, shall we say bruised a bit when I whip out the "religion bites" posts....

Then again, my in-laws still hold out hope for my conversion, and think that my pursuing religious studies is a sign I am 'seeking Him...' *heave* So I am used to it! LOL

[pollcat.livejournal.com]

Funny... when I first met my hubby, he told me that he had read the Bible and the Koran despite being raised a Jew who became an agnostic. When I asked him why he read them, he said, "Know thy enemy."

Sometimes when I think about you studying religion, I think of what my hubby said. ;)

I have a good friend whose ex-husband, a Jew, re-married a Christian woman. When their marriage started to have problems, she told him if he wanted to save it, he needed to find Jesus. Yeah, 'cuz Jesus will fix the fact that you married a jerk in the first place. As far as I'm concerned, they both deserve each other.

Oy.

[sentimental13.livejournal.com]

I made the choice to be a Christian, and I always hate the bad rap that Christians get. People used to roll their eyes at me about it and would misjudge me before they ever got to know me. I wasn't the super-christian that so many people try to be; I was the black lipstick and fishnet wearing crazy in my high school who tried to prove that you could still be yourself no matter your spirituality. It's one thing to be yourself and express that, but it's another thing entirely when you try to shove your ideas down someone else's throat. I'm bothered by that across the board, by the zealots of every religion and denomination and non-religion, too. I do think the "famous Christians" of televangelism among others do a disservice to Christians as a whole. We've gotten a bad rap, and I'm not saying everyone does what they should, but the true message is not what TBN and the blue-haired lady are touting it to be.

[raven-moon.livejournal.com]

I agree; then again, as I told another commenter, you are not the sort of person being addressed here! LOL It is rare (and please take this as the compliment it is intended to be) to find people who believe anything strongly without trying to cram it down the throats of others.

Christianity presently takes the worst of the bad rap largely because there seem to be a particularly large number of loons of that creed (more or less) trying to run the place at the moment....

For me, it all ties in to my feeling that 'religion' (as distinguished from individual spirituality, which I value and respect quite highly) has outlived its usefulness, and as a social construct does far more harm than good...

[sentimental13.livejournal.com]

I have a bit of a problem with religion itself, and here's how I view it. Religion is man reaching out to God, but God's already reached out to man through Christianity (Jesus and all that) and man must only take up his hand. It's not at all about the habit and mindlessness associated with religion; it's about a personal choice to take the hand that's been extended. I'm not sure how many Christians would agree with me on that, but there it is anyway.

Do this NOW!!! :)

[pollcat.livejournal.com]

Please, for the love of puppies everywhere, you must drop everything you are doing right now and read this...

http://scalzi.com/whatever/?p=121

MAKE SURE you click on the link to the pictures and read through those too. Bloody brilliant, I tell you. You'll love it.