Brain go 'splode.

[lunadelcorvo]

I am not even sure what I can say to introduce this article, as I think the title pretty much sums it up: "We Need to End Non-Consensual Pelvic Exams"

Seriously, how the hell does anyone, anyone at all, not know, right away, without having to stop and consider it, that this is wrong, wrong, wrong? I mean... what the... how... Words fail.

Thanks to virginia_fell for posting this first!

Comments

[hope-guides-me.livejournal.com]

ARE YOU SHITTING ME?! Just to get a man's perspective, I asked Daniel what he thought of a woman going in for an operation and then the doctors doing a pap smear on her (without consent) before she woke up. He said that the women was being molested in her sleep.

[raven-moon.livejournal.com]

Absolutely! And it's not like this is even a routine diagnostic measure, or like it's doctors that are doing it. It's purely so med students can 'practice.' (and we know how serious, focused, and respectful med students are, right?) In fact, one of the implied questions that arose from this is whether any abnormalities or risk factors identified in the course of such a 'practice exam' were to be reported to the patient, since they had not authorized the test.

I think this is perhaps one of the most egregious institutional violations I've seen. One group suggested that women should ask, if they are having surgery, whether there will be students performing an exam, and if they ask that this not be done their wishes will be respected. So, in other words I have to "opt-out" of having an unnecessary, involuntary pelvic exam????? I feel violated when I have to opt-out of junk e-mail, fer cryin' out loud!

Crazy shit, for sure! I hope this makes mainstream news, and people has massive shit-fits about it! *shudder*

[virginia-fell.livejournal.com]

This is seriously absolutely fucking insane.

[raven-moon.livejournal.com]

Totally. How did you come across the article, by the way? It's not like this seems to have seen much airplay, more's the pity. I sure as heck hope this get's a lot of attention, and loads of people get seriously up in arms over it. I've already forwarded the link to several people, some of whom might make some local noise about it, especially since we are all *so proud* of our local university hospital...

*shudder*

[virginia-fell.livejournal.com]

I get newsletters from Care2, a relic from my days of signing lots of petitions through their site.

[thewenchywiccan.livejournal.com]

(http://icanhascheezburger.com/2010/01/30/funny-pictures-committeh-mulls-options/)
see more Lolcats and funny pictures (http://icanhascheezburger.com)


The hell?! This is absolutely NOT okay in ANY sense of the word, and it's quite terrifying. I understand the need students have to practice - it's why they're students, but for Christ's sake, why can't they see that it's WRONG?! It would be the same as giving an unconscious man a Prostate exam without asking prior permission. They might not be full fledged Doctors yet, but I'd hope the reason they're studying to BE Doctors is to "Do no harm" which this most certainly does!!

[raven-moon.livejournal.com]

Sadly, I'm afraid it has more to do with Mercedes than mercy. There is such a massive disconnect in this country between the ethics and ideals of medical professionals and the reality of the patient experience. We have this idea that doctors are infallible, and that we can't speak up, object, question. Doctors, in particular, seem to have this idea.

Yet another benefit of a public health care system - doctors live well, but not like here; the wealth disparity alone accounts for a lot of the disconnect. And they actually have to keep patients happy in order to stay working....

[thewenchywiccan.livejournal.com]

True - Mom learned from Day 1 with me that my life was literally on the line if she DIDN'T learn to call the Doctors out and get second opinions and whatnot. She used to consider them infallible but no longer, and raised me to be wary. She's been the true definition of a Mama Bear, she had to be.

And the rampant greed (Mercedes vs Mercy) sickens me. Like Doctors, my Father SAVED LIVES. There are people (heh, and animals) that are on this planet, living, and breathing and having fulfilling lives because of him, and that's a miracle to me. He ALWAYS preached finding something that feeds your soul rather then your stomach, and for him it was Firefighting. He could NEVER believe he got paid to do what he did - and Doctors should damn well fall under this same category. He viewed everything and everyone as having a spirit, and so compassion was key. THAT'S how I want a Doctor to see me. NOT as a White Blazer or Lakeside Cabin.

[lucretiasheart.livejournal.com]

This is disgusting, but totally unsurprising.

This type of thing is why I'm so distrustful and hostile in general towards the entire medical establishment...

[raven-moon.livejournal.com]

Absolutely, I'm with you. I am surprised that apparently this happens with men as well. Like the old saying that if men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament, I would think that such a "violation" would be curtailed in short order. The only possible advantage to that, of course, being legislation that would forbid this sort of thing across the board....

"vagina teachers"

[lucretiasheart.livejournal.com]

You know, an LJ friend who lives in New Orleans is a part of a med school that asks for volunteers to get pelvic exams by students, but they interact with the students and give them advice on angles to use, what's comfortable and what's not, etc. They call these women "vagina teachers" as odd as that may sound. All medical schools should do this-- not only do they find women who are very willing, but the woman is NOT unconscious and is treated with respect, having discussions and such.

Re: "vagina teachers"

[raven-moon.livejournal.com]

There is a documentary linked from the article which seems to feature just such a person. I think this is a fine idea. Not to mention that really, how much can one learn from an exam on someone who isn't awake to say "Hey, knucklehead, watch it!" All one learns is mechanics, and in fact, I think it encourages practitioners to treat women like inert meat.

Although, it is a little odd, that prostitution is illegal, but making your living by opening wide for a whole series of med students is not.... LOL

Re: "vagina teachers"

[lucretiasheart.livejournal.com]

NO doubt!

Re: "vagina teachers"

[samuraiartguy.livejournal.com]

That's a LOT saner!!!
And it may have the virtue of being... legal.

Re: "vagina teachers"

[lucretiasheart.livejournal.com]

Well, treating women like "inert meat" as RavenMoon put it, has been LEGAL for a long time-- so long as you have "M.D." by your name, or are at least going for that.

Fair? HELL to the NO. But that's why we have to champion change.

[celtickittenmew.livejournal.com]

This is so wrong it make me immediately angry. I am TERRIFIED of pelvic exams since a doctor screwed one up and cut me internally, with a piece of plastic that should have been removed from the examination instrument. It was horrifyingly painful. Furthermore, being a survivor of sexual assault I don't want any male touching me in that area at all. The idea of it caused me to break out into a cold sweat, faint, and upon waking, burst into tears in a urologist's office when he suggested that he would have to do a similar exam. So, if I found out that someone had done such an exam on me while I was unconscious (and thus helpless to stop it or say "NO!") I would not only sue for millions I might clock the bastard responsible! Where do I sign the petition to end this nightmare?

[raven-moon.livejournal.com]

I'm with you. I can only imagine how difficult that must have been. I learned early on to take control of a Gyn exam, and I've gotten both push-back and compliments. That's how I ended up choosing my doc! Incidentally, if you need a rec for a really good 'work with me not on me' kind of doc, I'd be happy to send you my doc's info - she's awesome!

I think all we can do is spread the word, write letters, etc. I'd like to poke the med school at our dear uni, and see what the policies are.... No place to start work than right at home, after all...

::EDIT:: that was SO not the icon I meant to use! LOL Fixed!

[samuraiartguy.livejournal.com]

Oh My Hairy-kneed Gods and smooth-limbed Goddesses!
That's frakkin' INSANE... and CRIMINAL. What the hell are those arrogant f**ks THINKING????!!!

* runs in circles.. waving arms.. *

[lucretiasheart.livejournal.com]

Just read your latest (last public) entry. I'm really sorry someone gave you bullshit grief anonymously. I have no idea what it's all about, but I just wanted to say you're the last person to deserve a Flaming Troll.

Farking cowardly asshats...

[raven-moon.livejournal.com]

Pretty much my assessment! Thanks, sweetie.

No worries, I'll still post often, and all the people I really want to read are here already anyway. :)

[lucretiasheart.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's one nice thing about having been on LJ for a few years, eh?